TRNW-2: Fwd: 10R80 pump bolts
Dan Hogan
danhogan at busterstransmission.com
Tue Feb 18 09:43:25 PST 2025
Thanks Chris. TRNW and you guys who participate your time here are making things easier.
Thanks All.
---
Dan Hogan
Buster's Transmission Service
https://busterstransmission.com
704.847.5321
________________________________
From: trnw2-bounces at trnw.net <trnw2-bounces at trnw.net> on behalf of Chris and Cathy Kershaw via trnw2 <trnw2 at trnw.net>
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2025 4:23 PM
To: Technical Discussion Forum <trnw2 at trnw.net>
Subject: TRNW-2: Fwd: 10R80 pump bolts
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Chris and Cathy Kershaw <kershawservicesllc at gmail.com<mailto:kershawservicesllc at gmail.com>>
Date: Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: TRNW-2: 10R80 pump bolts
To: Dan Hogan <danhogan at busterstransmission.com<mailto:danhogan at busterstransmission.com>>
Looks like it was revised in 23. They sure do make it tough to keep up with all this.
[Screenshot_17-2-2025_16222_my.alldata.com.jpeg]
On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 2:45 PM Steve Everett <severett61 at gmail.com<mailto:severett61 at gmail.com>> wrote:
This is probably the first time I've used a Transtec paper rubber on one of these, but they do put the rubber seals for the pump bolts in the kits, and apparently also washers for them if you choose to go that route ?
Steve
On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:56 AM Chris and Cathy Kershaw <kershawservicesllc at gmail.com<mailto:kershawservicesllc at gmail.com>> wrote:
Last I looked the 10r paper rubber kits are cheaper from ford & frictions are more expensive from ford. We’ve been doing Transtar kits with bw frictions. Sometimes our salesman has to order the individual frictions from a couple branches.
On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:17 AM Steve Everett via trnw2 <trnw2 at trnw.net<mailto:trnw2 at trnw.net>> wrote:
We do have a small local dealer that we get all the drums and valvebodies from , they're good about keeping the commonly replaced items in stock, I'll get the manager to check on kits, I generally won't use anything but BW on the friction, and I ordered a Transtec paper and rubber yesterday, which amazingly was actually cheaper than the other option
Steve
On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 10:55 AM pat schulte <zzyzxpat at gmail.com<mailto:zzyzxpat at gmail.com>> wrote:
If you have a dealer close it might be something to look at, I buy everything from Ford. I have found especially with friction and steels, the aftermarket (Ray) usually are not the correct thickness many times, plus the OE prices are very competitive.
On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 7:45 AM Steve Everett via trnw2 <trnw2 at trnw.net<mailto:trnw2 at trnw.net>> wrote:
The unit I tore down friday was a 2021 unit, and it has the external torx bolts, with a rubber seal around the inside of the head, similar to 4L80e pump bolts, this unit had a terrible converter shudder, which was the main reason for pulling it, around 100k, trash can is worn but not real bad, drum sleeve hasn't moved, we're replacing both anyway with updated parts, as well as a valvebody,
The reason I asked about the pump bolts originally is because I remember when we first started seeing these units we were told "always replace the pump bolts," but in looking closely at them I saw no reason for that ? all the ones I've done have had the rubber seal around the inside of the bolt head, the ones that come in one of the aftermarket ktis simply have a ring of silicone there, and once you tighten them down it destroys and flattens that silicone ring, ( discovered that on the first unit I built when I didnt have a clutch hub all the way engaged in the clutches, and had to tear the unit back down )
It seems there isn't a day goes by lately that I am not disappointed in the quality of some of the replacement parts we either have to use , or are supposed to use? I'm seriously looking forward to retiring and then I will pick and choose what I want to work on,
Steve
On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 8:02 AM Dan Hogan via trnw2 <trnw2 at trnw.net<mailto:trnw2 at trnw.net>> wrote:
They changed these pump bolts at some point as the original installed and original replacements appeared to have a sealing patch on the bolt flange and now the bolts in the OE kit have actual rubber seals under the bolt head. Ford also changed from 10 mm hex heads to an external torx plus heads (EP) shown below.
[cid:ii_1950a3f7ea2cb971f16a]
Thanks Randy for the info and this makes better sense on the pump bolts here.
The aluminum bolts used to hold the transfer case to the transmission must not be technically TTY as they have only one specified torque value. I was looking and appears there are another category of bolts for aluminum fasteners designated as one-time use (OTU) and we see this a lot of German suspensions. These don't use a seal patch or have any locking compound on them, so I suppose the fastener permanently stretching much like a TTY fastener is the reason for the one time use.
[cid:ii_1950a3f7ea2cb971f167]
Chris,
Identifix must have the original (old) manual for the 2018 as this is not the same description as I just finished an 18 this week. I think your Alldata is showing the manual for a later model or a revised copy. Probably closer to 2023-2024 would be my guess.
[cid:ii_1950a3f7ea2cb971f168]
Check to see if Alldata shows the revision date up in the right top corner of the document. This is showing 8/21/19.
[cid:ii_1950a3f7ea2cb971f169]
Keeping us on our toes I guess...
---
Dan Hogan
Buster's Transmission Service
https://busterstransmission.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__busterstransmission.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=smOzNWPZu5-MBJg-0tkHhHoVW9xEBKdKWsMxBeFAJDZVJI6X79ZhQVJ_erT6I9aF&m=VnMZV5VPdhl38hmc-b0v1vgYwoik5Nb5DxQAihVEjCaK9SXcrd6bv6boc6nwwufZ&s=Jso3x3XEtOmVarlN5FN6YogrTGyxUY1dMAWQsuzhx6g&e=>
704.847.5321
________________________________
From: trnw2-bounces at trnw.net<mailto:trnw2-bounces at trnw.net> <trnw2-bounces at trnw.net<mailto:trnw2-bounces at trnw.net>> on behalf of Steve Everett via trnw2 <trnw2 at trnw.net<mailto:trnw2 at trnw.net>>
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2025 6:01 PM
To: Randolph Wilson <Randolph.Wilson at transgo.com<mailto:Randolph.Wilson at transgo.com>>; Technical Discussion Forum <trnw2 at trnw.net<mailto:trnw2 at trnw.net>>
Subject: Re: TRNW-2: 10R80 pump bolts
Thanks Randy ! good o know , oddly enough the seals on the Ford bolts remain in good shape after removing them , unlike the aftermarket ones where the sealer is flattened and destroyed after initial tightening, I'll play close attention to the condition of the seals, but I intend on reusing the bolts, unless I can get new ones from Ford, I do not like or trust the aftermarket ones
Steve
On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 5:32 PM Randolph Wilson via trnw2 <trnw2 at trnw.net<mailto:trnw2 at trnw.net>> wrote:
There are many reasons a manufacturer will call for new bolts. Most common is because of a special coating on the bolts. The coating can be a sealer, a locking agent, or an anti-corrosion lubricant (think magnesium cases). They can also be torque to yield. The one thing about TTY is they will always be protractor torqued. Not all protractor torqued bolts are TTY, but TTY will always be protractor torqued.
In this case Ford calls for replacing them because of the sealer.
[cid:ii_1950a3f7ea24cff311]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.transgo.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=smOzNWPZu5-MBJg-0tkHhHoVW9xEBKdKWsMxBeFAJDZVJI6X79ZhQVJ_erT6I9aF&m=V0WPChPhqgQ5ukNS48lkrV9etP1qesMLG6qjl_UdEVOZJ-QLBQ96gD98wOcjzhiC&s=fzsRheYvTDi1SiozTvti63qG6x5_qCvpuwgeykLD-zs&e=>
Randy Wilson
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Office: 626.443-7451
Calibration | Innovation |Performance
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From: trnw2-bounces at trnw.net<mailto:trnw2-bounces at trnw.net> <trnw2-bounces at trnw.net<mailto:trnw2-bounces at trnw.net>> On Behalf Of Dan Hogan via trnw2
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2025 1:11 PM
To: Technical Discussion Forum <trnw2 at trnw.net<mailto:trnw2 at trnw.net>>
Subject: Re: TRNW-2: 10R80 pump bolts
Steve,
These factory pump bolts appear to be TTY (torque to yield) and are one and done. I suspect if you decided to re-use, using the factory torque spec likely will be too low as the bolts stretch once and deform.
I know the transfer case to transmission bolts are definitely TTY and the factory torque spec is very low. I don't think shops are replacing as needed, but it's likely a bad idea. There's nine of them so guess they cross their fingers, pray and blame later.
I wish makes would not use these type fasteners as it only introducing errors and mistakes in the aftermarket to already expensive and costly work. Blame the eurotrash as they started this mess with TTY on likely unnecessary areas of vehicles. Cheaper i guess.
---
Dan Hogan
Buster's Transmission Service
https://busterstransmission.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__busterstransmission.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=smOzNWPZu5-MBJg-0tkHhHoVW9xEBKdKWsMxBeFAJDZVJI6X79ZhQVJ_erT6I9aF&m=V0WPChPhqgQ5ukNS48lkrV9etP1qesMLG6qjl_UdEVOZJ-QLBQ96gD98wOcjzhiC&s=u_eDJJFc-DyruvUBRow-8RgGFf8DM1dgQUGnSF8cHM4&e=>
704.847.5321
________________________________
From: trnw2-bounces at trnw.net<mailto:trnw2-bounces at trnw.net> <trnw2-bounces at trnw.net<mailto:trnw2-bounces at trnw.net>> on behalf of Steve Everett via trnw2 <trnw2 at trnw.net<mailto:trnw2 at trnw.net>>
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2025 10:55 AM
To: Technical Discussion Forum <trnw2 at trnw.net<mailto:trnw2 at trnw.net>>
Subject: TRNW-2: 10R80 pump bolts
anyone had any issues with reusing the factory 10R80 pump bolts ? I've reused them on a couple units with no problems, I've tried using the ones that come in Precision kits, but their seal is nothing but silicone, which smashes and destroys itself after initial tightening , looks cheesy to me, I trust the factory bolts over them, as long as you don't over torque them
Steve
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--
Pat Schulte
AAMCO Transmissions
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